Ethan Watters' excellent book 'Crazy Like Us - The Globalization of the American Psyche' suggests that the US (and probably the developed world in general) is actually creating mental illness in other countries by defining conditions to which people in those cultures then succumb. It's almost, he says, as if the definitions come first, then patients present with them.
But the West's influence might not have spread everywhere yet. I recently chatted over lunch to a 26-year-old Vietnamese computer science PhD student. As we discussed our respective work, I described Moodscope only to see that he just didn't understand the idea of depression, and wasn't even familiar with the concept of someone feeling suicidal.
He was a bright guy, so you can only conclude that it's a cultural thing. Perhaps depression is yet to hit Vietnam? Completely anecdotally, we'd both lost our internet access earlier on. I assumed I'd done something wrong, whereas he was certain that the problem was caused by someone else, and while it's dangerous to make assumptions from a sample size so small, I know there's evidence to suggest that whereas in the West we blame ourselves when things go wrong (unhealthy) in the East there's a tendency to externalise the issue (healthier). Interesting, isn't it?
Maybe if you read Susan Cains book Quiet you get a taste of how Oriental and Occidental mentalities differ. I believe that in times of upheaval and war incidents of depression are much reduced. Certainly depression features more in developed nations than developing. Also factor in cultural attitudes to personal/mental health. I think there is a PHD waiting to be written on this topic.
ReplyDeleteIt's a chicken and egg situation. Some say that depression is caused by a physical inbalance in the brain which needs a physical remedy (anti depressants) but what has caused this inbalance? Many years of low moods which have a psychological cause? Doctors used to tell me that my insomnia was caused by depression when I maintained I was depressed only because of a lack of deep refreshing sleep; my depression would disappear if only I could sleep properly!
ReplyDeleteThe whole subject, depression etc is so much more complicated than a cultural, physical or mental thing. But your blog does throw up some interesting things to think about. It's like people in the West are obese but not in the East or the African continent so much because of our diet and there isn't a word in the Japanese dictionary for the menopause. Women there just do not have the problems associated with it over here. Is this again because of their diet or because it is not defined in Japan and therefore women there don't think about it? Who knows?
None of us wants to feel depressed..at least I don't think so..I don't think I do! But my life would change radically if I were not and everyone around me would have to adapt. Perhaps Jon is right..it has become too much a way of life for us in the west, just like overeating.
Interesting.
Take a look at the Human Givens books on depression and anxiety, they have helped me tremendously along with John kabat zin, I too was in a cycle of insomnia and depression, I am now fairly balanced and although i still have ups and downs I feel quiet well equipped to sort myself out when in a low time.
DeleteVery interesting what you say about culture and depression. I had thought about looking into that one myself. In Australia we lose more to suicide than we do on the roads.
ReplyDeleteI've had to change the way I think to save my own life for the very reason that you describe.
I'm doing a course at Tafe and sucide is something we are studing, thanks for the bit of imfo.
Hi everyone,
ReplyDeleteI always look forward to reading these. Just wanted to comment on feeling suicidal.I'm just thinking out loud here and it's an opinion open to change.
Isn't it thinking suicidal? I can feel low or high physical and my thoughts can be of killing myself so I think suicidal rather than have a particular feeling for it?
I think it's a mixed state where i have high energy but think suicidal. In a low mood thinking more i wish i wasnt here but i cant be bothered to switch myself off.
Yesterday my neighbor made me angry. But thinking about it I made myself angry over the way I interpreted my neighbors actions.
He was making a noise loading logs into a barrow. Now I was saying to myself " He's delibratly making a noise to make me angry. or He's so inconsiderate of anyone else by making a noise". And these thoughts build up to a head crushing crescendo. If I can catch them early enough and turn things around to see his view point it can really change my mood. I could think I can hear him as he is next to my fence, or He's quite deaf so doesn't realize the noise he's making or his mind is elsewhere and he has more to think about.
More often then not though I find this hard, another thing to do to help is to ring a friend and say what your thinking to try and get a more balanced perspective. well sorry about my waffle, lots of thoughts, feels good to express them. Keep well. Mark
Maybe, in the so called civilised world, our sometimes out-of-date interpretation of Christianity, hangs on - you know, remnants of the old "self flagellation" and such.
ReplyDeleteI think we do have to be very careful about using the notion of cultural difference to explain why whole groups of people might or might not exhibit depression in the way that it is usually diagnosed in the West. There is already very good historical scholarship by people like Megan Vaughan, Jock McCulloch and Warwick Anderson about the ways in which mental health knowledge and practice has created differences between Western and non-Western experiences of depression that continue to resonate today. For example, people of colour in Western countries continue to be chronically under-diagnosed and under-treated for depression because doctors who treat them don't see the same signs of depression. They have been trained to look for depression in the way in manifests in a certain segment of the population.
ReplyDeleteI am not saying that people don't do things differently in different places, or in different languages as one poster already commented, but that generalizing cultural difference in thinking about mental health is fraught with assumptions about what the 'original' depression looks like (as though, it is a culture-free concept itself).
For example, in my own struggles with depression one of the things that has helped the most is Buddhist meditation. Buddhist philosophy underpins quite a lot of East and South-East Asian culture, and it certainly teaches us that, as the person who posted about their neighbour pointed out, that we can and should take responsibility for how we experience the world in our minds. I think the existence of such a practice shows that Eastern people too have struggled with what goes on in their own minds--they don't externalize by habit and more than Western people do--but they have different cultural practices for dealing with it. They might do differently, but they are not generally or essentially different. As I said, it matters if we say this, because in the contemporary West the perception of cultural difference sometimes means people don't get the help they need for their depression.
What have read is that suicide in the east is as common place as the west - But maybe its the pressures of our more disenfranchised industrial societies that create socialially isolated people who just can't cope with the rat race. I read china as higher levels of suicide now its an industrial nation. Maybe Vietnam will catchup soon now its becoming more like us
ReplyDeleteI bought this great book just 3 days a go .I though about Iran as a country which has the heigh rate in depression but in low rate of suicide .
ReplyDeleteSo Julia you're saying depression is a way of life and we could get better if only we were willing to change our relationships? (presumably to less dependant ones). Great, now I've found something else to self flagelate over.
ReplyDeleteThat's not what she said: reread
DeleteThank you Anonymous!! I think this person might be the same one who sent a very odd post recently about one of Jon's blogs. It was very confusing, silly and nasty. I chose to ignore this yesterday but am very grateful you picked it up and responded in this way. Thanks again!
DeleteI wonder how much of this effect is due to other cultures maintaining that such things are impossible, and therefore people with these afflictions hide them because they think it's some unnatural and utterly shameful thing. Kind of like how some people from many different cultures will claim that their society literally doesn't have homosexuals.
ReplyDeleteYes you could be right James. Do you think there is a huge underground of homosexuals and depressed people in these cultures who officially just do not exist.
DeleteThere is still stigma (unlawful of course) attached to depression in the workplace in this country. But hopefully it is getting better.
Well, the homosexual men in repressive societies often end up in their country's military, where in at least such two cultures I know of, homosexuality is inexplicably totally fine and explained away as desperation; it's not exactly underground (though that exists too I'm sure). I'm not sure what depressed people do...probably nothing at all because they're depressed and have nobody to turn to!
DeleteVery interesting. There is such a wide spectrum to depression but no definitive medical test as to where one is on this spectrum. Unlike for cancer or diabetes for example. I know it can be how one feels but so many factors play a part in this. If only we could be tested for depression! It might turn out that some of us are not in fact depressed but our reaction to life is perfectly normal. Sometimes it's our self imposed or externally imposed expectations of our performance which leads us to believe we are depressed (if we don't live up to these often imagined expectations)
DeleteMaybe people in other cultures don't have these expectations of themselves or are more accepting of what life throws at them. Maybe they have a lot of family support. I just do not know!!
I know there is a sort of definition of depression nowadays here as when I go to my GP, before he will prescribe anti depressants, he makes me fill in a questionnaire, which I have to repeat every time he calls me in, to see if I am feeling better according to my answers. (actually no anti depressant has helped me in the past for longer than 3 months so I don't take them now). I think this form is a relatively recent thing and must have been compiled by experts.
Anyway James, I expect I have gone a bit off course here. It's snowing so much where I live, I can't face going out so spending far too much time at my computer. I hope you have a good day today.
If my internet access died then I wouldn't just assume it was my fault. I'd assume that the ISP had screwed up. Again. They're not very reliable, compared with say phones, or electricity or water. But those other services have a hundred year headstart on getting it right, and are considered more essential. After all no-one dies if they can't order something from ebay.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I worked in IT for 20 years, so I know when it's my PC that's screwed up or the ISP. The rest of my life may be shot to hell, but at least I can sort out my computer...